We are still working on some of the navigation but both of the new shapers are up on the site. If you are interested in taking a look at the Ezera boards by Dave Pearson including his new wake surfing line click on this link: http://www.surfboardbuilders.com/BrowseBoard.aspx?ShaperID=34
To take a look at the surfboards by Mike Walker (performance shortboards, fish, and wake surfing boards) click on this link: http://www.surfboardbuilders.com/BrowseBoard.aspx?ShaperID=33
We are super stoked to add both of these shapers!
Sunday, December 30, 2007
Tuesday, December 18, 2007
China Surfboards, Pop Outs, and Custom Surfboard Shapers
Last summer we sat down with a few of the shapers on surfboardbuilders.com to discuss among other things the growth of "pop out" boards. The interview ended up being too hot to get posted or covered in the usual spots....so here it is!
There is a growing concern in the grass roots surf community within America and elsewhere about molded and South Asian imported surfboards and misconceptions about the boards being fueled by high profit and advertising dollars. The blogs have been on it for a couple years but often surfers at large are getting conflicting information. The guys at surfboardbuilders.com sat down with a few top hand shapers to have an open discussion on this topic.
There is a growing concern in the grass roots surf community within America and elsewhere about molded and South Asian imported surfboards and misconceptions about the boards being fueled by high profit and advertising dollars. The blogs have been on it for a couple years but often surfers at large are getting conflicting information. The guys at surfboardbuilders.com sat down with a few top hand shapers to have an open discussion on this topic.
Shapers: Larry Mabile, Michael Andrews, Tim Bessell
Tell us about the beginning?
TB: When this first started, I was approached by a company with production in China. I gave them a board, not mine, to see if they could copy it and they sent me back the two of the most horrific boards I’ve ever seen. I gave one to a team rider and he broke the first board in half the first wave. The second board broke in half about a week later. That was my first and last experience with China. There is absolutely no need for me to go there.
I make surfboards for the love of the craft and because its my life, its my purpose, and I love shaping surfboards everyday. As people becomes more educated they’re going to demand a hand made product…and they rightfully should because it’s far superior.
LM: When this first started it was like this high pressure sales thing. It was like, “hey you have to get on this now. You gotta have these, ‘cause these boards are the future.”
The way it came about truly, I don’t want to say “has been” shapers but guys that were out of the surf scene for a long time. They did not surf or build boards…then all of a sudden with the resurgence of longboards and molded boards with licensing deals they were able to get back into the market on their past laurels…just to make a buck.
Literally many did not shape the board that they are attaching their name to. They had somebody else do it, had a mold made of it, and off they went. It was just advertising and using the past as a way to promote their surfboards. So what you’re getting now from those oversees things is fake…it’s just a fake all the way around.
I could name names and give examples because I’ve seen it. In one recent example the board was made here, shipped back to Thailand, and the mold was made off the board. And like I said it came down to these guys that didn’t even shape the board. They crudely shaped it had someone else finish it up for them. Then it got sent over to China to be reproduced.
Comment on the growth of pop outs and china boards?
MA: In the beginning, initially it wasn’t all that bad….except for quality. Instead of a kid having to go buy a second hand board with 300 dings he could buy something that was clean and at least nicer to look at. Then when they started to get any decent skill surfing then they could move on and buy a higher quality board. It was good because it got more people into the sport. Now it’s changed a bit cause of the advertising.
Right now there are fewer hand shaped boards in shops because of the markup that shops get on Chinese boards. Now some of the shops around here are telling shapers that they have to match Chinese board prices…which is just ludicrous because they (hand shaped boards by master shapers) cost a lot more to make. I guess you can’t blame them. It’s a business. They have to try and make the best margins they can…but this is surfing. The shops need to respect the fact that without shapers they are a boutique.
On quality:
LM: I see a lot of cover ups for manufacturing flaws like fancy colors or a hot coat color just something to cover up flaws.
TB: It’s a double edge sword. The good thing is that they can allow the entry level market to get in at a cheaper rate but with an inferior product. The good thing is that we are going to have more surfers that hopefully we can educate and help them become sophisticated buyers so that there second, third and on boards are the higher quality custom boards make specifically for themselves. Just like what all the top pros have…custom. The biggest problem with China in the long run is going to be a lack of progressive design and then it’s gonna force quality shapers out of the business because of the material and labor differential. So you are abandoning the roots of surfing and buying a Chinese product which is only going to hurt everybody in the industry in the future. It’s very short sighted. The soul and good will of the surfboard would be lost.
MA: They (China) have proven that they can’t get their act together. The quality still sucks, the shapes still suck and its like if they can’t get their act together by now, when are they? I’m definitely not threatened by it. I just wish the retailers would realize that its not all about money. It can’t be. You’ve got to look after the soul of the sport.
What about the term “high performance” often used in ads for these boards?
LM: High performance is a catch word. It’s a marketing term. You aren’t gonna see them say, “buy our new mediocre boards”.
MA: At high performance breaks most guys are still on standard boards. You might see an older guy on an 8’ pop out but for the most part you are not seeing them in the water. Maybe if you are a recreational surfer that goes to the beach a few times a summer but not for the regular surfer.
TB: Many people making boards in south Asia have never seen the ocean. They don’t know how to surf, they don’t give anything back to the surfing world. They only take. When you buy a Chinese board its low quality. Its not built to a master shaper’s specs. Those companies take shapes from shapers and then just spit them back out…and they just don’t have the soul of a handcrafted product made by a shaper/ surfer who can actually shape. Listen, when I shaped my first 5,000 boards I thought I knew everything and learned I didn’t. The same thing has occurred at each level. I do think that once you have built 25,000 boards you really know your craft. That’s when you become a master craftsman. In essence, from China you have novice shapers likely with no feedback from surfing their own shapes or even understanding surfing and often you are paying a premium price.
Most of the great shapers are great surfers. At pipeline your life depends on that board. Are you willing to put your life on the line for a board shaped by someone who has never surfed. You can’t buy or artificially manufacture that experience. The boards from south Asia are just inferior. They don’t have that “x” factor. I mean, if you can get a Ferrari or a Kia for the same price which would you buy?
How seductive is the money:
MA: Yeah the advice coming out of magazines right now is bad. If you have the dollars then you can say whatever you want…they will get into bed with you. Magazines aren’t gonna say, “we don’t want to advertise with you cause it’s a hunk of crap.” There are so many good shapers around. To be honest, I understand guys capitalizing on their name but as a shaper and surfer it just something to make money on but hopefully people understand its inferior to a hand shaped surfboard made by the top guys.
LM: These guys get a royalty check for doing nothing. For going to the beach one day with their molded board and like I said it’s some guys who haven’t shaped in decades capitalizing on their name recognition. It’s not like people are getting something that you actually produce with your own hands. Also, these guys are just getting their royalty check but they are not giving back to surfing. These board manufacturers spend a lot running ads in surf magazines and right now there is lots of bad advice coming out of the magazines. They are swayed editorially by the advertising dollars. It’s bad all the way around…and if this continues where is the innovation? It’s gone. I saw it with the sail board thing. Molded boards killed the whole custom sailboard market around here.
Last words?
MA: Without the people that shape, the possibility of getting a hand shaped board goes away. Getting a new custom board is a highlight. Imagine if in 10-15 years everybody is riding a pop out board and all of the shapers are gone. It would be devastating, I think, to the whole sport.
TB: Hand shaped by a master shaper versus knock off…Do you want an original hand painted Picasso or do you want a print on paper. It’s the same thing with boards. We have hundreds of talented shapers from around the world. You should support those shapers because they are the ones who provided the foundation to this multi billion dollar industry. You don’t want to cut the roots of the tree…because it will die as will the foundation of surfboard design.
LM: I shaped every day by hand. There is no substitute for those years of experience riding, getting feedback, and shaping.
Comment from surfboardbuilders...Does it strike you as funny how the pop out and "new" technology board manufacturers are on a constant mission to create a board that provides the same flex and feel of a poly board?...hmmm
Gary Linden on Big Wave Surfing
Back by request is our interview with shaper/big wave rider Gary Linden....
Big Wave Surfing: Insights from surfer/shaper legend Gary Linden
Interview by surfboardbuilders.com
8/24/07
When did you start surfing big waves?
It’s hard to put it into years because riding big waves has always been a state of mind. The size just got bigger and bigger as I got older…but I always wanted to sit outside and catch the biggest wave….even if it was closed out. I just wanted to see if I could get to the bottom.
I was talking with Pat Curran and he said that it was a similar thing for him. He would sit outside. He just wanted to catch the biggest wave. So, I guess to put it a little more direct, the biggest waves I caught up to about 1971 were at Sunzal in El Salvador. I went out on a really big day on a really little board and that was my first exposure to anything huge other than Rincon in 1969…so start early. Big waves can be 6 feet or 50 feet. It’s the biggest thing that comes in… and that’s the drive.
How do things change when you move from normal to big surf?
Well…for anytime you push your limits, going back to that state of mind, it gives you an adrenaline rush. There is that thrill that you aren’t going to make it. And then when you do… The elated sensation when you do accomplish it, or you don’t...but the wipeout is fun too. There’s a rush to surviving that but as you go bigger and bigger the gravity or the feeling of throwing yourself off a building or something…I don’t like to be in high places cause if I get close (to the edge) I want to jump. I mean there is something inside me that wants to experience that. So I’m scared of it but when I ride big waves I can experience that weightlessness…that feeling of just throwing myself over the ledge.
You get to a point where you can’t paddle that fast and it becomes impossible to do that so sometimes when you are at that level (of surf) your looking down and there is only one or two that you might be able to get. At about 40 foot faces it starts to become marginal and about 50 foot it becomes 1 or 2 then over that it’s pretty much impossible to get down (the face) but its basically the same feeling…you can get the same thing if it was your first 6 foot wave at pipeline…where the bottom comes out and you don’t feel like you are going to make it.
So it’s that feeling. You get comfortable at 6 ft. Then you get comfortable at 10 foot. Then you get comfortable at 15 foot. Then you get comfortable at 20 foot. Then you try and get comfortable at 25 foot but no one ever gets comfortable at 30 foot. So you know, you just keep walking up the ladder but you are searching that same feeling. The feeling that you aren’t going to make it and then…you climb Mount Everest …you do it.
What are your favorite big wave spots?
My absolute favorite place for huge waves is Todos Santos cause I’m so comfortable and I have the most experience out there…and it’s probably the least crowded.
Rumor has it you go out there every year on your birthday?
Yeah, every year on my birthday. I’m going to try and keep doing it. I got lucky this year cause two days before was the predicted good swell and I saw that it was probably going to come a little bit later. I like it when there is kind of bad winds, big and nobody out. It turned out to be the biggest day of the year.
If I could surf Waimea with just a few people out that would be next. It has warm water. One day we caught it about 20 feet, about 35 to 40 foot faces with Elijah Young and Cheyne Horan…just the three of us. We had three hours by ourselves and that was incredible. I’ve had one good day at Makaha Point. It’s just like Rincon. It’s probably the best big wave ever but it doesn’t break very often…and then Dungeons in South Africa because it’s such a challenge and I’ve put some time in there.
Tell us about the changes in equipment at that level.
A good board for big waves for me has basically got to have some volume. It’s got to be big and chunky! You are going to be dealing with a lot of power. You aren’t going to be worrying about sinking the rail. You want to have soft edges. Mark Foo told me to make a board for him and he goes, "soften this thing up 'cause I’m not worried about getting speed. I’m worried about landing. I don’t want to catch on anything.” (laughs) You just keep it simple. You want to basically keep a flat bottom with some vee between the fins but I guess neutral in a word would be the best way to describe it.
You also want to have some good tail rocker and I like to have low entry rocker and a lot of tail rocker because I don’t want it (the board) to push me out front (of the wave). I want it to fit in that curve and I’m going to be standing on that tail because I want that nose to be up.
Tell us a little about your experience with Tow In surfing.
I started towing in 1995 with Cheyne and the Willis brothers in Hawaii. I’ve also towed into some big waves in Todos and some at Dungeons. As part of the Billibong Odyssey the most fun was towing in to the Columbia Rivermouth. That was just incredible.
I like it a lot but just don’t have the time to do all of the training necessary. The endurance of going behind a ski that’s going 40 miles per hours….most humans aren’t made for this so you’ve got to spend time in the gym to beef up your leg muscles, your arms, and your back.
Also, I prefer to savor my big waves. It’s going to take me two or three hours to catch 4 waves paddling in. It’s a big accomplishment…like hunting with a bow and arrow. Towing in is like having a gun and having someone run the deer by you (laughs)!
You tow into a wave, your down, you grab the rope, back up and out, towed into one more. You don’t get to rest. I want to remember every wave I paddle into. For me it’s just my position in life. If I had more time, I’d chase more waves tow and paddle. I don’t have anything against it. For me there is just no time for the training necessary.
Hold downs at this level…how do you deal with them?
You’ve got to be able to appreciate the thrill of the experience of being held down. It’s more of an adrenaline rush than making it…when you take that first breath after being held down for so long. If you are afraid of it, you aren’t going to make it. It’s all about relaxing. You have to be able to relax. So if you are prepared for being held down and you are not worried about being held down then it’s just a matter of time.
I worry about hitting my head…getting hit by your board or hitting the bottom. Those are the two dangers. The rest is just a matter of overcoming fear. I had asthma when I was a child so I learned how to relax and not gasp for breath. I mean if you panic when you have asthma it gets worse. If you relax you are going to make it through. Flea has asthma really bad too. It’s basically the same thing. So I’m not stressed about getting air and I’ve been through some long hold downs. You try and get a big breath before and try to not use it. You just try to not panic and try to let it go and ….just relax.
How has surfing big waves affected your shaping?
Surfing big waves has affected my shaping a lot on guns because I’m really confident I can make you a board that works. I think it’s important. If you really want to ride big waves, get a board from someone who has ridden them because it’s a whole different playing field out there. I’m really confident in that.
You know when Dick Brewer makes guns few people know that he used to ride really big waves too. That just carries over (to the shaping room). Jeff Clark makes good guns and rides big waves. It doesn’t take as much shaping ability as much as big wave experience to make a good big wave gun…I don’t think. Some really good shapers that don’t ride big waves, unless they listen really closely make terrible guns.
You can’t just make a high performance shortboard for big waves. You have got to be out there. You just don’t have any idea from your shaping room what its like when you ride a 20 foot wave. It’s a whole different playing field. You can look at something that you think is going to work…when you get out there and you do have the misfortune of catching one (laughs) you just get annihilated! That’s part of the core thing of being a big wave surfer/shaper.
Big Wave Surfing: Insights from surfer/shaper legend Gary Linden
Interview by surfboardbuilders.com
8/24/07
When did you start surfing big waves?It’s hard to put it into years because riding big waves has always been a state of mind. The size just got bigger and bigger as I got older…but I always wanted to sit outside and catch the biggest wave….even if it was closed out. I just wanted to see if I could get to the bottom.
I was talking with Pat Curran and he said that it was a similar thing for him. He would sit outside. He just wanted to catch the biggest wave. So, I guess to put it a little more direct, the biggest waves I caught up to about 1971 were at Sunzal in El Salvador. I went out on a really big day on a really little board and that was my first exposure to anything huge other than Rincon in 1969…so start early. Big waves can be 6 feet or 50 feet. It’s the biggest thing that comes in… and that’s the drive.
How do things change when you move from normal to big surf?
Well…for anytime you push your limits, going back to that state of mind, it gives you an adrenaline rush. There is that thrill that you aren’t going to make it. And then when you do… The elated sensation when you do accomplish it, or you don’t...but the wipeout is fun too. There’s a rush to surviving that but as you go bigger and bigger the gravity or the feeling of throwing yourself off a building or something…I don’t like to be in high places cause if I get close (to the edge) I want to jump. I mean there is something inside me that wants to experience that. So I’m scared of it but when I ride big waves I can experience that weightlessness…that feeling of just throwing myself over the ledge.
You get to a point where you can’t paddle that fast and it becomes impossible to do that so sometimes when you are at that level (of surf) your looking down and there is only one or two that you might be able to get. At about 40 foot faces it starts to become marginal and about 50 foot it becomes 1 or 2 then over that it’s pretty much impossible to get down (the face) but its basically the same feeling…you can get the same thing if it was your first 6 foot wave at pipeline…where the bottom comes out and you don’t feel like you are going to make it.
So it’s that feeling. You get comfortable at 6 ft. Then you get comfortable at 10 foot. Then you get comfortable at 15 foot. Then you get comfortable at 20 foot. Then you try and get comfortable at 25 foot but no one ever gets comfortable at 30 foot. So you know, you just keep walking up the ladder but you are searching that same feeling. The feeling that you aren’t going to make it and then…you climb Mount Everest …you do it.
What are your favorite big wave spots?
My absolute favorite place for huge waves is Todos Santos cause I’m so comfortable and I have the most experience out there…and it’s probably the least crowded.
Rumor has it you go out there every year on your birthday?
Yeah, every year on my birthday. I’m going to try and keep doing it. I got lucky this year cause two days before was the predicted good swell and I saw that it was probably going to come a little bit later. I like it when there is kind of bad winds, big and nobody out. It turned out to be the biggest day of the year.
If I could surf Waimea with just a few people out that would be next. It has warm water. One day we caught it about 20 feet, about 35 to 40 foot faces with Elijah Young and Cheyne Horan…just the three of us. We had three hours by ourselves and that was incredible. I’ve had one good day at Makaha Point. It’s just like Rincon. It’s probably the best big wave ever but it doesn’t break very often…and then Dungeons in South Africa because it’s such a challenge and I’ve put some time in there.
Tell us about the changes in equipment at that level.
A good board for big waves for me has basically got to have some volume. It’s got to be big and chunky! You are going to be dealing with a lot of power. You aren’t going to be worrying about sinking the rail. You want to have soft edges. Mark Foo told me to make a board for him and he goes, "soften this thing up 'cause I’m not worried about getting speed. I’m worried about landing. I don’t want to catch on anything.” (laughs) You just keep it simple. You want to basically keep a flat bottom with some vee between the fins but I guess neutral in a word would be the best way to describe it.
You also want to have some good tail rocker and I like to have low entry rocker and a lot of tail rocker because I don’t want it (the board) to push me out front (of the wave). I want it to fit in that curve and I’m going to be standing on that tail because I want that nose to be up.
Tell us a little about your experience with Tow In surfing.
I started towing in 1995 with Cheyne and the Willis brothers in Hawaii. I’ve also towed into some big waves in Todos and some at Dungeons. As part of the Billibong Odyssey the most fun was towing in to the Columbia Rivermouth. That was just incredible.
I like it a lot but just don’t have the time to do all of the training necessary. The endurance of going behind a ski that’s going 40 miles per hours….most humans aren’t made for this so you’ve got to spend time in the gym to beef up your leg muscles, your arms, and your back.
Also, I prefer to savor my big waves. It’s going to take me two or three hours to catch 4 waves paddling in. It’s a big accomplishment…like hunting with a bow and arrow. Towing in is like having a gun and having someone run the deer by you (laughs)!
You tow into a wave, your down, you grab the rope, back up and out, towed into one more. You don’t get to rest. I want to remember every wave I paddle into. For me it’s just my position in life. If I had more time, I’d chase more waves tow and paddle. I don’t have anything against it. For me there is just no time for the training necessary.
Hold downs at this level…how do you deal with them?
You’ve got to be able to appreciate the thrill of the experience of being held down. It’s more of an adrenaline rush than making it…when you take that first breath after being held down for so long. If you are afraid of it, you aren’t going to make it. It’s all about relaxing. You have to be able to relax. So if you are prepared for being held down and you are not worried about being held down then it’s just a matter of time.
I worry about hitting my head…getting hit by your board or hitting the bottom. Those are the two dangers. The rest is just a matter of overcoming fear. I had asthma when I was a child so I learned how to relax and not gasp for breath. I mean if you panic when you have asthma it gets worse. If you relax you are going to make it through. Flea has asthma really bad too. It’s basically the same thing. So I’m not stressed about getting air and I’ve been through some long hold downs. You try and get a big breath before and try to not use it. You just try to not panic and try to let it go and ….just relax.
How has surfing big waves affected your shaping?
Surfing big waves has affected my shaping a lot on guns because I’m really confident I can make you a board that works. I think it’s important. If you really want to ride big waves, get a board from someone who has ridden them because it’s a whole different playing field out there. I’m really confident in that.
You know when Dick Brewer makes guns few people know that he used to ride really big waves too. That just carries over (to the shaping room). Jeff Clark makes good guns and rides big waves. It doesn’t take as much shaping ability as much as big wave experience to make a good big wave gun…I don’t think. Some really good shapers that don’t ride big waves, unless they listen really closely make terrible guns.
You can’t just make a high performance shortboard for big waves. You have got to be out there. You just don’t have any idea from your shaping room what its like when you ride a 20 foot wave. It’s a whole different playing field. You can look at something that you think is going to work…when you get out there and you do have the misfortune of catching one (laughs) you just get annihilated! That’s part of the core thing of being a big wave surfer/shaper.
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